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WinstonChurchill
Inviato il: Lunedì, 25-Apr-2016, 09:53
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QUOTE (Iscandar @ Domenica, 24-Apr-2016, 18:42)
Quiero una pregunta a Napoleone, ¿tu es italiano? se si, ¿porque abal engles cum WinstonChurchill? eres italiano.    biggrin.gif

Scusami Riccardo questo misunderstanding è figlio di una mia colpevole omissione: dovevo chiarire prima che il nostro Napoleone non è italiano smile.gif .



QUOTE (napoleone @ Domenica, 24-Apr-2016, 17:11)
Hi Winston,
another question,in the Log of the Hms Safari,during the attack on the Bella Italia/295, 9th april 1943 you can see that the ship was accompanied by a small motor minesweeper,that had probably beached herself,you know which boat it was? http://uboat.net/allies/warships/ship/3430.html
Greetings and thanks a lot
Nap


Hello Nap my sources does not mention the presence of other ships during the attack so I think the only way to clarify this point is to perform a research at the USMM. She could be "a small motor minesweeper" or another ship assigned to the "vigilanza foranea", but is very difficult to say.


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napoleone
Inviato il: Mercoledì, 27-Apr-2016, 17:26
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QUOTE (WinstonChurchill @ Lunedì, 25-Apr-2016, 08:53)
QUOTE (Iscandar @ Domenica, 24-Apr-2016, 18:42)
Quiero una pregunta a Napoleone, ¿tu es italiano? se si, ¿porque abal engles cum WinstonChurchill? eres italiano.    biggrin.gif

Scusami Riccardo questo misunderstanding è figlio di una mia colpevole omissione: dovevo chiarire prima che il nostro Napoleone non è italiano smile.gif .



QUOTE (napoleone @ Domenica, 24-Apr-2016, 17:11)
Hi Winston,
another question,in the Log of the Hms Safari,during the attack on the Bella Italia/295, 9th april 1943 you can see that the ship was accompanied by a small motor minesweeper,that had probably beached herself,you know which boat it was? http://uboat.net/allies/warships/ship/3430.html
Greetings and thanks a lot
Nap


Hello Nap my sources does not mention the presence of other ships during the attack so I think the only way to clarify this point is to perform a research at the USMM. She could be "a small motor minesweeper" or another ship assigned to the "vigilanza foranea", but is very difficult to say.

Mille Grazie,
Tanti Saluti da Cagliari
Nap
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napoleone
Inviato il: Giovedì, 28-Apr-2016, 20:04
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QUOTE (napoleone @ Mercoledì, 27-Apr-2016, 16:26)
QUOTE (WinstonChurchill @ Lunedì, 25-Apr-2016, 08:53)
QUOTE (Iscandar @ Domenica, 24-Apr-2016, 18:42)
Quiero una pregunta a Napoleone, ¿tu es italiano? se si, ¿porque abal engles cum WinstonChurchill? eres italiano.    biggrin.gif

Scusami Riccardo questo misunderstanding è figlio di una mia colpevole omissione: dovevo chiarire prima che il nostro Napoleone non è italiano smile.gif .



QUOTE (napoleone @ Domenica, 24-Apr-2016, 17:11)
Hi Winston,
another question,in the Log of the Hms Safari,during the attack on the Bella Italia/295, 9th april 1943 you can see that the ship was accompanied by a small motor minesweeper,that had probably beached herself,you know which boat it was? http://uboat.net/allies/warships/ship/3430.html
Greetings and thanks a lot
Nap


Hello Nap my sources does not mention the presence of other ships during the attack so I think the only way to clarify this point is to perform a research at the USMM. She could be "a small motor minesweeper" or another ship assigned to the "vigilanza foranea", but is very difficult to say.

Mille Grazie,
Tanti Saluti da Cagliari
Nap

Ciao Winston ,ciao Francesco
during my research i found a discussion on the forum marinearchiv about a confidential report "Enemy or Italian Warships and Merchant Vessels sunk or damaged in waters of Southern Sardinia".
It is mentioned in the US War Diary,NOB Palermo,Port of Cagliari 11 Feb.1944.
Do you have more information about this report?
Tanti Saluti e mille Grazie
Nap
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WinstonChurchill
Inviato il: Venerdì, 29-Apr-2016, 12:50
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In fact the source cited says that, but I don't have any information about this report. You might try asking at the NARA smile.gif .

"[...]

10 February

Confidential report on "Enemy or Italian Warships and Merchant Vessels sunk or damaged in waters of Southern Sardinia" forwarded to Commander-in-Chief, Mediterranean in compliance with his confidential dispatch 031810. Bad weather conditions delayed sailing of Pompeo Magno. James Randall completed discharge Jennings (T). Empire Lass (T), and Espero awaiting loading. British Patience (T) awaiting escort to Bizerte. Mull waiting to escort tankers to Maddalena upon completion loading.

11 February

Naval Off icer-in-Charge, Maddalena fs request for additional information on proposed civilian shipping between Cagliari and North Africa answered by my confidential dispatch 111545A. This message informed Naval Off icer-in-Charge, Maddalena for action, and Commander-in-Chief, Mediterranean, Flag Officer, Western Italy, Commandant, Naval Operating Base, Palermo, and Senior Naval Officer, Eastern Sicily for info that the Regional Allied Commissioner, Sardinia, stated there was no such traffic anticipated in the near future. Secret report on "U.S. Navy Controlled Ports in Sardinia, information on" forwarded to Commander-in-Chief, Mediterranean in compliance with his confidential dispatch 162215 of January and Commandant, Naval Operating Base, Palermo Ts letter NBAS-2, Serial 987, dated IS January 1944. Bad weather delayed loading Empire Lass (T). John Cropper, Jennings (T), and Espero awaiting loading

12 February

Pompeo Magno and Mull awaiting sailing. Commander-in-Chief, Mediterranean requested to grant Of f icer-in-Charge, U.S. Naval Detachment, Cagliari authority to sail Italian cruisers assigned to Sardinia - Italy ferry service to Naples, Taranto or Bari, as personnel scheduled for those ports become available. Empire Lass
(T) completed loading 9000 barrels of 100 octane gasoline. John Cropper, Jennings (T), and Espero awaiting loading. British Patience (T) awaiting escort. Mull awaiting sailing. Italian cruiser loaded 500 Italian personnel and departed for Naples.

[...]


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napoleone
Inviato il: Sabato, 30-Apr-2016, 15:26
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QUOTE (WinstonChurchill @ Venerdì, 29-Apr-2016, 11:50)
In fact the source cited says that, but I don't have any information about this report. You might try asking at the NARA smile.gif .

"[...]

10 February

Confidential report on "Enemy or Italian Warships and Merchant Vessels sunk or damaged in waters of Southern Sardinia" forwarded to Commander-in-Chief, Mediterranean in compliance with his confidential dispatch 031810. Bad weather conditions delayed sailing of Pompeo Magno. James Randall completed discharge Jennings (T). Empire Lass (T), and Espero awaiting loading. British Patience (T) awaiting escort to Bizerte. Mull waiting to escort tankers to Maddalena upon completion loading.

11 February

Naval Off icer-in-Charge, Maddalena fs request for additional information on proposed civilian shipping between Cagliari and North Africa answered by my confidential dispatch 111545A. This message informed Naval Off icer-in-Charge, Maddalena for action, and Commander-in-Chief, Mediterranean, Flag Officer, Western Italy, Commandant, Naval Operating Base, Palermo, and Senior Naval Officer, Eastern Sicily for info that the Regional Allied Commissioner, Sardinia, stated there was no such traffic anticipated in the near future. Secret report on "U.S. Navy Controlled Ports in Sardinia, information on" forwarded to Commander-in-Chief, Mediterranean in compliance with his confidential dispatch 162215 of January and Commandant, Naval Operating Base, Palermo Ts letter NBAS-2, Serial 987, dated IS January 1944. Bad weather delayed loading Empire Lass (T). John Cropper, Jennings (T), and Espero awaiting loading

12 February

Pompeo Magno and Mull awaiting sailing. Commander-in-Chief, Mediterranean requested to grant Of f icer-in-Charge, U.S. Naval Detachment, Cagliari authority to sail Italian cruisers assigned to Sardinia - Italy ferry service to Naples, Taranto or Bari, as personnel scheduled for those ports become available. Empire Lass
(T) completed loading 9000 barrels of 100 octane gasoline. John Cropper, Jennings (T), and Espero awaiting loading. British Patience (T) awaiting escort. Mull awaiting sailing. Italian cruiser loaded 500 Italian personnel and departed for Naples.

[...]

Hi Winston,
thanks for the Info,will be quite difficult to find it i think,but maybe it's worth it
Mille Grazie da Cagliari
Nap
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napoleone
Inviato il: Martedì, 03-Mag-2016, 19:59
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QUOTE (WinstonChurchill @ Venerdì, 08-Apr-2016, 21:55)
Come promesso ecco qualche dato relativo alla Salpi (ex Vittoria, Ariele, Escambia). Questa nave da carico venne ordinata al cantiere "Bacini & Scali Napoletani", dalla Lucania Società Italiana di Navigazione di Napoli. Impostata a Baia nel 1917 venne varata nel 1920 con il nome di Vittoria. Completato l'allestimento il 27.07.1920 la nave presentava le seguenti caratteristiche: 2710 tsl, 1584 tsn, 3500 tpl, 1 caldaia a triplice espansione Tosi(Legnano), 1 elica, velocità 10 nodi. In servizio dal luglio del 1920 nel 1923 venne ribattezza Ariele. Ceduta nel 1928 alla ditta individuale Alberto Tomaso Rosasco di Genova, nel cui compartimento marittimo venne iscritta con matr. GE1501, adottò il nuovo nome di Escambia. Nel 1939 passa alla Peninsulare Società di Navigazione, anche questa con sede a Genova, sotto le cui insegne serve come Salpi. Danneggiata a Genova il 9.02.1941 nel corso dell'operazione Grog verrà affondata, mentre si trovava in navigazione sulla rotta Civitavecchia-Cagliari, il 9.02.1942 alle ore 15.40 a circa 2 miglia per 100° da Capo Ferrato probabilmente da una mina facente parte di uno dei due sbarramenti posati, tra il 21 e il 22 ottobre 1941, dall'HMS Rorqual. Non risulta essere mai stata requisita dalla Regia Marina e/o iscritta nel ruolo del naviglio ausiliario dello Stato.

Hi Winston,
you wrote the owner of the Salpi was the "Peninsulare Societa di Navigazione" in Genoa. I found an abbreviaton"Peninsulare Italiana" and i found another company in Genoa called" Peninsulare Societa Italiana di Cabotaggio".Are these all different names for the same company?
Thanks a lot for your help
Nap
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WinstonChurchill
Inviato il: Mercoledì, 04-Mag-2016, 17:03
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Well I used the name of the company found on the Lloyd's register of ships but in fact there is another source, that seems to quote the RINA (Registro Italiano Navale), which calls this company "Peninsulare Societa Italiana di Cabotaggio":


user posted image
Source: Lloyd's Register of Ships 1940-41
Link to enlarge the picture: http://i65.tinypic.com/2pyvv54.jpg

user posted image
Source: Pro Schiaffino, Le Carrette degli Armatori Genovesi, Nuova Editrice Genovese, Genova, 1996.
Link to enlarge the picture: http://i63.tinypic.com/i6dnid.jpg


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napoleone
Inviato il: Giovedì, 05-Mag-2016, 13:57
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QUOTE (WinstonChurchill @ Mercoledì, 04-Mag-2016, 16:03)
Well I used the name of the company found on the Lloyd's register of ships but in fact there is another source, that seems to quote the RINA (Registro Italiano Navale), which calls this company "Peninsulare Societa Italiana di Cabotaggio":


user posted image
Source: Lloyd's Register of Ships 1940-41
Link to enlarge the picture: http://i65.tinypic.com/2pyvv54.jpg

user posted image
Source: Pro Schiaffino, Le Carrette degli Armatori Genovesi, Nuova Editrice Genovese, Genova, 1996.
Link to enlarge the picture: http://i63.tinypic.com/i6dnid.jpg

Hi Winston,
mille grazie,so probably it's the same company,maybe just different names,because the lloyds register should be reliable ,i think
Thanks again
Nap
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napoleone
Inviato il: Mercoledì, 25-Mag-2016, 21:08
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QUOTE (WinstonChurchill @ Mercoledì, 04-Mag-2016, 16:03)

user posted image
Source: Lloyd's Register of Ships 1940-41
Link to enlarge the picture: http://i65.tinypic.com/2pyvv54.jpg


Hi Winston,
if you look at the measurements of the Salpi in the Lloyd's register you have an abbreviation "Q",does this mean quarterdeck and this quarterdeck was under the poopdeck? I think "B" stands for Bridgedeck,with 16 feet quite short,this was a single deck or on top of the quarterdeck.You can give me an idea how the ship looked like?
Thanks very much for your help
Greetings
Nap

Messaggio modificato da Miky il Mercoledì, 25-Mag-2016, 21:23
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WinstonChurchill
Inviato il: Giovedì, 26-Mag-2016, 01:38
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This is the meaning of the letters:

CODE
"P" = Poop
"Q" = Quarter deck
"B" = Bridge deck
"F" = Forecastle



QUOTE (napoleone @ Mercoledì, 25-Mag-2016, 21:08)

Hi Winston,
if you look at the measurements of the Salpi in the Lloyd's register you have an abbreviation "Q",does this mean quarterdeck and this quarterdeck was under the poopdeck? I think "B" stands for  Bridgedeck,with  16 feet quite short,this was a single deck or on top of the quarterdeck.You can give me an idea how the ship looked like?
Thanks very much for your help
Greetings
Nap


Well it is not easy to say, all is possible, but the vessel's profile could be similar to this:


user posted image


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napoleone
Inviato il: Giovedì, 26-Mag-2016, 11:24
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QUOTE (WinstonChurchill @ Giovedì, 26-Mag-2016, 00:38)
This is the meaning of the letters:

CODE
"P" = Poop
"Q" = Quarter deck
"B" = Bridge deck
"F" = Forecastle



QUOTE (napoleone @ Mercoledì, 25-Mag-2016, 21:08)

Hi Winston,
if you look at the measurements of the Salpi in the Lloyd's register you have an abbreviation "Q",does this mean quarterdeck and this quarterdeck was under the poopdeck? I think "B" stands for  Bridgedeck,with  16 feet quite short,this was a single deck or on top of the quarterdeck.You can give me an idea how the ship looked like?
Thanks very much for your help
Greetings
Nap


Well it is not easy to say, all is possible, but the vessel's profile could be similar to this:


user posted image

Hi Winston,
thanks very,very much for your Plan,it helped me a lot.
Just one more question,in lloyd's,after te abbreviation 1 DK(Deck) i found 2 Tr,it's an abbreviation for the holds?, and if there's no Tr mentioned, does it mean no holds?
Thanks again for your help
Greetings from Cagliari
Nap
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WinstonChurchill
Inviato il: Sabato, 28-Mag-2016, 11:18
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You must consider that I don't have evidence that this profile is right: it's only a guess, so be careful. I think that "tr" could be an abbreviation for tiers: so 1 deck 2 tiers but I am not sure. I will look into the matter winks.gif


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napoleone
Inviato il: Domenica, 29-Mag-2016, 16:20
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QUOTE (WinstonChurchill @ Sabato, 28-Mag-2016, 10:18)
You must consider that I don't have evidence that this profile is right: it's only a guess, so be careful. I think that "tr" could be an abbreviation for tiers: so 1 deck 2 tiers but I am not sure. I will look into the matter winks.gif

Hi Winston,
Mille grazie,i tried already finding photos of ships with similar measurements,thanks again.
Hope we manage to find out this TR abbreviation.
Greetings
Nap
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