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> Identificazione mercantile
Pinin
Inviato il: Sabato, 19-Lug-2014, 10:59
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Questa è una curiosa mercantile con certamente un scafo modificato. Chiunque ha un'idea dell'identificazione?


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Photo source: http://dati.acs.beniculturali.it/SecondaGuerraMondiale/#

Luogo/Data: Patrasso 1941
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incles
Inviato il: Sabato, 19-Lug-2014, 21:13
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L'unità in primo piano è una torpediniera della classe "Spica".


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Pinin
Inviato il: Domenica, 20-Lug-2014, 09:15
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lo so
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de domenico
Inviato il: Domenica, 20-Lug-2014, 09:53
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QUOTE (incles @ Sabato, 19-Lug-2014, 20:13)
L'unità in primo piano è una torpediniera della classe "Spica".

Il porto potrebbe essere il Pireo.


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WinstonChurchill
Inviato il: Domenica, 20-Lug-2014, 10:18
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No Francesco, if you look the mountains behind the pier, Patrasso seems correct.


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de domenico
Inviato il: Domenica, 20-Lug-2014, 10:28
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QUOTE (WinstonChurchill @ Domenica, 20-Lug-2014, 09:18)
No Francesco, if you look the mountains behind the pier, Patrasso seems correct.

You' re right, Nicola. See this photo sent by Marco Ghiglino, which shows much the same line-up:

https://mail.google.com/mail/u/O/#search/pa...73f?projector=1

Sorry, I'll mail the AIDMEN thread to-morrow, with a couple of very interesting (and helpful, Pinin) pictures..

Messaggio modificato da de domenico il Domenica, 20-Lug-2014, 10:33


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Pinin
Inviato il: Domenica, 20-Lug-2014, 11:08
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Thanks dedomenico.
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de domenico
Inviato il: Lunedì, 21-Lug-2014, 09:52
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Fwd: italian water carriers
Posta in arrivo
x

Aris Bilalis 25/05/13

Hello Francesco

I hope you are doing well. I had a closer look into the picture of Patras that you Marco had mailed on 9/12/12. I think the larger ship in the proximity should be a member of the 1928-built EGEO class. Given that AXIOS was at Patras after April 1942, then she could only be EMPIRE PATROL (ex-RODI) as the other three had sunk before 4/42. If this is the case, then the picture was taken in late-44/early-45 and shows AXIOS on her way back to Greece from Italy.

Do you think that this is possible?
best regards
Aris


2012/12/9 Marco Ghiglino

...sorry i forgot the pict...

From: Marco Ghiglino
Sent: Sunday, December 09, 2012 3:31 PM
To: De Domenico Francesco ; Aris Bilalis
Cc: Giorgio Spazzapan ; Giorgio Spazzapan
Subject: Re: italian water carriers


Hello friend researchers,

This is becoming a fantastic thread and full of information, mostly unknown. Just to make a clear table let see what we found out about the water carriers:

Adda = KALLIROE (or KALLIROI) paid off 1965
Nera = STYMPHALIA paid off on 28.09.76 and sunk as target on 18.09.78
Aterno = KRINI or KASTALIA
GRS.... = PROMITHEUS (maybe ex german MARIANNE after sept 1943)

Then we don't know yet the fate of water tanker ADIGE.

About ROVIGNO this is really interesting so now we are 100% sure Albona became Tilemahos.
Piave and Nino Chiesa are very hard target for us but I think we will find the light in the end of the tunnel...

In addition to this I attached a picture that i bought on internet that shows Patras I think in the end of 1941.....take a look of the only camouflaged vessel we can see......looks like AXIOS....just hidden behind a number of ships that would be nice to find the name but I think it's almost impossible....

Best regards

Marco Ghiglino

From: De Domenico Francesco
Sent: Saturday, December 08, 2012 3:56 PM
To: Aris Bilalis
Cc: marco.ghiglino
Subject: R: italian water carriers


Hello Aris & Marco,

to complete the picture, I should add that among the ships which surrendered at Syros on 13/14 Sept. 1943, in addition to ALBONA/Netztender 57, ROVIGNO/Netztender 56, OTRANTO/M 1223/GA 78, GALLIPOLI served in the Kriegsmarine as M 1222/GA 79 and RD 35 as GA 83/ M 1229.
OTRANTO, GALLIPOLI and RD 35 were at first with Kuestenschutzflottille Attika as minelayers (in service 16.9.1943), then with 12. Raumbootflottille/B-Gruppe (M 1200s, in service 12.1943), then back with the KS-Fl. Attika (GA=Griechenland, Attika). ALBONA and ROVIGNO served in Netzsperr-Flottille Sued. The small German vessel that brought about the surrender of Syros was the Greek schooner TASSIA CHRISTA, GA 41 later UJ 2141.

So I only miss info about the German service of PIAVE, a schooner (goletta) of 40 grt/1937, owner Claudio Milano of Porto Santo Stefano, requisitioned by the Regia Marina as the auxiliary minesweeper R. 35, later found sunk in Salonika harbour; and about NINO CHIESA.

Francesco

Da: Aris Bilalis
Inviato: sab 08/12/2012 9.50
A: De Domenico Francesco
Cc: marco.ghiglino
Oggetto: Re: italian water carriers


Hello Francesco and Marco

concerning ROVIGNO, I suppose that you will be interested to find out
that she was raised by the Shipwreck Salvage Organisation after the
war, sold to Lemberos Bros and rebuilt in Perama as the IKAROS.
She was registered in Piraeus as a 118-grt diesel cargo ship, in March 1949.
She was still extant in 1986 but I don't have any further information since.

Best regards
Aris

2012/12/3 De Domenico Francesco
> ADDENDA. RD 35 later became the German minesweeper M 1229, just like MAS 522
> became S 511 (lost 4.12.1943); ROVIGNO became Netztender NT 56, ALBONA the
> NT 57, OTRANTO served the Kriegsmarine from Sept.1944 under her own name.
>
> ________________________________

> Da: Aris Bilalis
> Inviato: dom 02/12/2012 17.52
> A: De Domenico Francesco
> Oggetto: italian water carriers

>
> Hello Francesco
>
> In relation to our past conversation on Italian water carriers, I
> found some pictures that might help.
>
> First is the PROMITHEUS and you will see that it can't be ADIGE. Do
> you know where ADIGE was scuttled by the Germans?
> Then is KALLIROE (ex-ADDA) and KASTALIA. I think that KASTALIA must
> also be a former Italian water carrier. Any ideas which that might be?
> The photos are from the Navy's Historical Department, so please note
> to anyone that you want to share the photos with that they should not
> publish them without a permission from the Navy.
>
> With Marco we have researched also the story of the ship mentioned by
> Paizis-Paradelis as KISSA "a former italian small passenger ship left
> behind by the Germans". Marco believes that she was the ex-NINO CHIESA
> a 91 GRT civil tug built in 1912 and captured by the Germans in Syros
> in September 1943. What is your personal opinion?
> In some web sources there is mention of a NETZTENDER 58, ex-KISSA but
> I don't think this is the same ship.
>
> Kind regards
> Aris
>
>
> ________________________________
Questa e-mail, ed i suoi eventuali allegati, contengono informazioni confidenziali e riservate. Se avete ricevuto questa comunicazione per errore non utilizzatene il contenuto e non portatelo a conoscenza di alcuno. Siete inoltre pregati di eliminarla dalla vostra casella e avvisare il mittente. E' da rilevare inoltre che l'attuale infrastruttura tecnologica non puo' garantire l'autenticita' del mittente, ne' tantomeno l'integrita' dei contenuti.
Opinioni, conclusioni ed altre informazioni contenute nel messaggio possono rappresentare punti di vista personali a meno di diversa esplicita indicazione autorizzata.

Francesco De Domenico 26/05/13 a Aris

Excuse me Aris, will you please mail me again the picture? Marco is busy in this period and I have had problems with the September change in my e-mail address.

All the best, Francesco


Aris Bilalis
Allegati 26/05/13


Hi Francesco, no problem, here is the picture.

Area degli allegati
Visualizza anteprima allegato Patras 1941 - ITA ex Axios.jpg
Immagine
Patras 1941 - ITA ex Axios.jpg

Francesco De Domenico 26/05/13

a Aris
I agree that the ship is one of the four EGEO-class. However, the little ship behind her is a Regia Marina WW.I RD (Rimorchiatore Dragamine), and the cargo next to her seems to me an Italian merchant ship, with a wind vane behind her funnel (an Italian custom). The destroyer or torpedo-boat stern visible at the extreme left carries no (or very few) depth charges. No Allied small vessel appears, as it should have if this were a 1944-45 picture.
Moreover, no vehicles on the quay. All of this points to a 1941-42 date, in my opinion.


Aris Bilalis 27/05/13


Thank you Francesco for your prompt and detailed answer. Since the photo cannot be before April 1941 and AXIOS laid sunk from April 1941 until April 1942 when she was towed from Syros to Tivat via Patras. So the photo should have be taken around April 1942. From the EGEO-class ships, I have the following regarding their fate:
RODI captured 11.6.40
EGEO sunk 24.4.41
CITTA DI BARI 3.5.41
EGITTO sunk 1.3.42
Now, the problem is that none of them appears to fit in the April 1942 "window". After all the ship in the photo might belong to another similar class...

kind regards


Francesco De Domenico 28/05/13 a Marco, Giorgio, Nereo, Gabriele, pasqualetrizio

Cari amici,

Aris Bilalis mi pone un quesito relativamente a questa foto inviata da Marco, e scattata nel porto di Patrasso. La foto potrebbe rappresentare l'ex posamine greco AXIOS (ex trawler inglese CAPE GRISNEZ, ex JAMES JOHNSON). recuperato dalla Regia Marina con l'intento di convertirlo nel posacavi RASTRELLO (Marco ne ha parlato sull'ultimo Bollettino). A quanto scrive Aris (con cui concordo) la nave in primo piano potrebbe essere una delle quattro classe EGEO (EGITTO, RODI, CITTA' DI BARI): e tuttavia, AXIOS sarebbe passato da Patrasso (diretta a Teodo/Tivat poi Brindisi) dopo l'aprile 1942, quando tre delle quattro erano già state affondate (l'ultima a marzo). Aris ipotizza quindi che la nave della foto sia EMPIRE PATROL ex RODI, e che quindi la foto sia successiva al novembre 1944 (liberazione alleata di Patrasso), con AXIOS sulla via del ritorno in Grecia da Brindisi.

A mio parere, invece (presenza di un RD, di un altro anziano mercantile italiano, assenza di veicoli sui moli, poppa del ct o tp a sinistra senza bombe di profondità, assenza di naviglio leggero britannico) la foto rappresenta Patrasso ancora in mani italo-tedesche. Quindi il mercantile in primo piano dovrebbe essere una nave simile ai quattro EGEO, ma non una delle quattro.

Qualcuno può esser d'aiuto in proposito?
Francesco



Francesco De Domenico Allegati 28/05/13

a Marco, Giorgio, Nereo, Gabriele, pasqualetrizio
Ecco la foto.


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28 maggio_NEW.jpg

Giorgio Spazzapan
28/05/13 a me, ghiglino, Gabriele, aris, Pasquale



cari amici/ dear friends : the identification of the ships in the Patras photo is very very easy: I waited for yhe next visit from Marco to make him a surprise.....as I didn't knew the Aris and Francesco involvement in the problem. It is necessary to start from the presence at Patras of the cruiser BARI and the destroyer AUGUSTO RIBOTY, both still in their grey livery , this meaning 1941 before the change into the dazzle painting starting on the italian ships after march 1941. Both ships were present at Patras, BARI since at least may 1941 and RIBOTY at many reprises at least until july 1941 for escort duties. In meanthime the only former Puglia/adriatica ship to be there at many reprises between at least may and july is the EGITTO. For EGITTO the identification is 110% sure. So far as for the AXIOS identification I remain to your sufggestions. Sourse : La difesa del traffico conn l'Albania e la Grecia USMM Saluti Giorgio

-----Messaggio Originale-----

Da: Francesco De Domenico
A: Marco Ghiglino ; Giorgio Spazzapan ; Nereo Castelli ; Gabriele Milani ; pasqualetrizio
Data invio: martedì 28 maggio 2013 10.21
Oggetto: Fwd: italian water carriers


Francesco De Domenico
28/05/13 a Giorgio, ghiglino, Gabriele, aris, Pasquale



Grazie Giorgio, confidavo nel tuo sapere istantaneo. Complimenti


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Messaggio modificato da WinstonChurchill il Lunedì, 21-Lug-2014, 12:47


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de domenico
Inviato il: Lunedì, 21-Lug-2014, 10:02
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patrasso 1941
Posta in arrivo Giorgio Spazzapan Allegati28/05/13 a me, aris, ghiglino, Gabriele, Pasquale



Marco è malizioso a mandarvi solo un dettaglio e non la foto completa..... Giorgio

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Francesco De Domenico 28/05/13 a Giorgio, aris, ghiglino, Gabriele, Pasquale

E quindi verosimilmente non è l'AXIOS. Magari uno dei trawlers di costruzione tedesca requisiti...

Francesco

Il giorno 28 maggio 2013 10:49, Giorgio Spazzapan ha scritto:


user posted image

Messaggio modificato da WinstonChurchill il Lunedì, 21-Lug-2014, 13:05


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Pinin
Inviato il: Lunedì, 21-Lug-2014, 16:40
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Grazie. Fascinating picture.

I edited it. I don't think it can be Axios the camouflaged ship, at least if she is like Styrmon.
It appears like Korgialenos but there is no information of have been requested by Regia Marina. So might be another ship.

About the mercantile it remains to be identified.

There is also a small patrol that in picture i posted is just next mercantile and the Spica class patrol boat and in this picture seems to have been moved to the other side of the pier.


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Messaggio modificato da Pinin il Lunedì, 21-Lug-2014, 16:54
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Pinin
Inviato il: Venerdì, 22-Ago-2014, 13:52
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Anyone agree that this mercantile is build between 1900-1930 and 2000 to 5000 tsl?
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WinstonChurchill
Inviato il: Sabato, 23-Ago-2014, 09:02
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I am sorry Pinin but at the moment I am without books. Next week I hope to be of some help winks.gif .


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de domenico
Inviato il: Sabato, 23-Ago-2014, 10:38
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Well, Pinin, I think she is ARSIA of 1900, owner Romano, ex CREDERE, ex EZILDA CROCE (I recognized her as such) ex EZILDA ex EASTCHEAP ex VAL DE TRAVERS of 1900, so you're barely within the time range.
See also on http://www.naviearmatori.net/ita/foto-35015-4.html a photo posted by m1000f (alias Mauro Millefiorini).

Messaggio modificato da de domenico il Sabato, 23-Ago-2014, 10:39


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Pinin
Inviato il: Sabato, 23-Ago-2014, 13:30
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Grazie Sir Winston.

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de domenico

I don't think she is if this picture is correct:

http://conlapelleappesaaunchiodo.blogspot....3/12/arsia.html

QUOTE
L’Arsia semiaffondato a Lampedusa, fotografato poche ore dopo il siluramento (tratta da “Navi mercantili perdute” di Rolando Notarangelo e Gian Paolo Pagano, USMM, Roma 1997)


I also think this one in Patrasso is a bit bigger.

Messaggio modificato da Pinin il Sabato, 23-Ago-2014, 13:44
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WinstonChurchill
Inviato il: Domenica, 31-Ago-2014, 21:47
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I am sorry Pinin but at the moment I haven't found anything that matches.

P.s.: but I am not surrender pirate2.gif


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