Benvenuto Visitatore ( Connettiti | Registrati )


Pagine : (3) [1] 2 3   ( Vai al primo messaggio non letto ) Reply to this topicStart new topicStart Poll

> Lo storico Maurizio Brescia e le "Navi Civetta", italiane
WinstonChurchill
Inviato il: Lunedì, 31-Mar-2014, 22:55
Quote Post


Administrator


Gruppo: Admin
Messaggi: 3920
Utente Nr.: 1
Iscritto il: 22-Giu-2012



Lo storico Maurizio Brescia sul sito internet dell'Associazione "Mare Nostrum", di cui è vice presidente, ha recentemente affermato che "Nessuna nave italiana fu impiegata durante la Seconda Guerra Mondiale come "nave civetta" (v. http://www.marenostrumrapallo.it/index.php...oria&Itemid=142 ). Questo inciso mi ha colpito perché contraddice quanto sostenuto dal Comandante Bagnasco nel suo volume "In Guerra sul Mare - Navi e Marinai Italiani nel Secondo Conflitto Mondiale", Albertelli, Parma 2005 pag. 194 laddove si ricorda che "quattro unità (Ottavia, Elena, Ninetta e Ariella contraddistinte dalle caratteristiche AS 91-94) verranno adattate a "navi civetta" ed opereranno in quel ruolo dal settembre 1941 all'aprile 1942". Spero che nell'ambito del Comitato Scientifico della Rivista "Storia Militare", di cui entrambi fanno parte, si possa presto ricomporre questa aporia.


--------------------
“Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm”

user posted image user posted image
PMEmail Poster
Top
Nelson
Inviato il: Martedì, 01-Apr-2014, 09:50
Quote Post





Gruppo: Members
Messaggi: 964
Utente Nr.: 5
Iscritto il: 24-Giu-2012



errare humanum est winks.gif

Messaggio modificato da Nelson il Martedì, 01-Apr-2014, 09:51


--------------------
user posted image user posted image
PMEmail Poster
Top
Adv
Adv















Top
de domenico
Inviato il: Martedì, 01-Apr-2014, 16:28
Quote Post





Gruppo: Special Guest
Messaggi: 3543
Utente Nr.: 7
Iscritto il: 25-Giu-2012



Pur non facendo parte di alcun Comitato Scientifico, nella mia umile qualità di "marinaio da scrivania" l'affermazione dell'illustre storico secondo cui nella seconda g.m. quasi nessuna marina avrebbe fatto uso di navi-civetta contrastava un po' con quanto mi pareva di ricordare.
E infatti. La Royal Navy ha requisito dieci mercantili nel 1939/40 per usarli come "decoy ships", formalmente battezzati "Special Service Vessels" e per l'occasione contrassegnati con pennant numbers e nomi fasulli, proprio come nella prima g.m.
Poi il fatto che tutto o quasi il naviglio mercantile venne rapidamente armato con pezzi d'artiglieria fece sì che gli U-Boote si guardassero bene dall'emergere ed usare il cannone come nella prima g.m. (i gentiluomini alla Fecia di Cossato non abbondavano nella Kriegsmarine, come sappiamo), per cui nel marzo 1941 l'uso dei decoy vessels venne abbandonato.
Due erano stati silurati e affondati da U-Boote nel giugno 1940 (PRUNELLA ex CAPE HOWE da U 28 e EDGEHILL ex WILLAMETTE VALLEY da U 51), quattro vennero trasformati in incrociatori ausiliari/OBV (BOTLEA ex LAMBRIDGE, KING GRUFFYDD ex MAUNDER, CITY OF DURBAN ex BRUTUS, CAPE SABLE ex CYPRUS), uno in nave civetta per aerei (FIDELITY ex francese LE RHIN), uno ritornò al precedente ruolo di nave pattuglia (PC.74 ex CHATSGROVE) e gli altri tornarono mercantili (ANTOINE ex ORCHY, LOOE ex BEAULY). (segue)

Messaggio modificato da de domenico il Giovedì, 03-Apr-2014, 17:31


--------------------
user posted image user posted image
PMEmail Poster
Top
de domenico
Inviato il: Martedì, 01-Apr-2014, 16:39
Quote Post





Gruppo: Special Guest
Messaggi: 3543
Utente Nr.: 7
Iscritto il: 25-Giu-2012



Ma anche la US Navy, nel periodo iniziale della guerra, quello della grande mattanza da parte degli U-Boote sulla costa atlantica e nei Caraibi, provò con esiti disastrosi ad allestire un po' di navi civetta o Q-ships: MANHASSET e MUSKEGET, AG 47 e 48 ex navi meteorologiche YAG 8 e 9, mercantili del 1923 di 1.827 grt; ASTERION ex EVELYN (poi AK 63) e ATIK ex CAROLYN, mercantili del 1912 di 3.209 grt, recanti i falsi numeri AK 100 e 101; ANACAPA AG 49 ex COOS BAY, 3.321 grt del 1919. Poi c'erano anche il trawler dragamine d'altura AM-132 EAGLE ex WAVE trasformato in Q-ship come PYc 40 CAPTOR, la nave cisterna AO 45 BIG HORN ex GULF DAWN, lo schooner IRENE FORSYTE IX-93 ex IRENE MYRTLE.
MUSKEGET affondato da U 755 e scomparso senza lasciar tracce con 117 vittime, ATIK affondato da U 123 con 141 vittime. prima ancora che gli venisse attribuito un pennant number. Gli americani non ne parlano volentieri, data l'infelice esperienza fatta, ma insomma uno storico di vaglia dovrebbe pur saperne qualcosa...

Messaggio modificato da de domenico il Giovedì, 03-Apr-2014, 17:43


--------------------
user posted image user posted image
PMEmail Poster
Top
WinstonChurchill
Inviato il: Martedì, 01-Apr-2014, 18:02
Quote Post


Administrator


Gruppo: Admin
Messaggi: 3920
Utente Nr.: 1
Iscritto il: 22-Giu-2012



Superbo lavoro di ricerca Signore ___________________________________showoff123.gif


--------------------
“Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm”

user posted image user posted image
PMEmail Poster
Top
de domenico
Inviato il: Martedì, 01-Apr-2014, 18:53
Quote Post





Gruppo: Special Guest
Messaggi: 3543
Utente Nr.: 7
Iscritto il: 25-Giu-2012



QUOTE (WinstonChurchill @ Martedì, 01-Apr-2014, 17:02)
Superbo lavoro di ricerca Signore ___________________________________showoff123.gif

La memoria regge ancora: sul vecchio Weyers Flottentaschenbuch del 1954, uno dei miei primi acquisti da shiplover (a Stoccarda, avevo 12 anni) c'era un'appendice che con teutonica precisione elencava le perdite navali della 2a g.m. marina per marina: mi ricordavo bene, tra le altre, le U-Boot-Fallen EDFGEHILL e PRUNELLA per la RN, ATIK ex CAROLYN per la US Navy.


--------------------
user posted image user posted image
PMEmail Poster
Top
Miky
Inviato il: Martedì, 01-Apr-2014, 20:23
Quote Post





Gruppo: Admin
Messaggi: 2050
Utente Nr.: 10
Iscritto il: 01-Lug-2012



Lei ha una memoria fenomenale ohmy.gif


--------------------
user posted image user posted image
PMEmail Poster
Top
WinstonChurchill
Inviato il: Mercoledì, 02-Apr-2014, 10:06
Quote Post


Administrator


Gruppo: Admin
Messaggi: 3920
Utente Nr.: 1
Iscritto il: 22-Giu-2012



Indubbiamente la memoria è importante ma è anche una questione di metodo. Sotto questo profilo Francesco ha molto da insegnarci.


--------------------
“Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm”

user posted image user posted image
PMEmail Poster
Top
de domenico
Inviato il: Mercoledì, 02-Apr-2014, 10:10
Quote Post





Gruppo: Special Guest
Messaggi: 3543
Utente Nr.: 7
Iscritto il: 25-Giu-2012




Due foto di HMS FIDELITY, ex LE RHIN. La prima da H.T. Lenton e J.J. Colledge, "Warships of World War II" 2a ediz., Ian Allan, 1973, e la seconda (che è poi la stessa) da Marc Saibène, Jean-Yves Brouard, Guy Mercier, "La Marine Marchande française 1943/1945", Marines édition, nov. 2001.



user posted image

user posted image

Messaggio modificato da de domenico il Mercoledì, 02-Apr-2014, 10:15


--------------------
user posted image user posted image
PMEmail Poster
Top
de domenico
Inviato il: Mercoledì, 02-Apr-2014, 10:43
Quote Post





Gruppo: Special Guest
Messaggi: 3543
Utente Nr.: 7
Iscritto il: 25-Giu-2012



Questa è una nave piuttosto famosa in Francia, anche se non per i nostri storici da Rivista H. Un cargo della Cie de Navigation Paquet, 2.456 grt/1920, costr. da Grayson a Garston, nell'aprile 1940 imbarca una squadra di sabotatori francesi che devono provare un nuovo esplosivo al plastico. Tornando in Francia da Dakar, LE RHIN fa scalo a Las Palmas, Isole Canarie. Ne riparte il 9 maggio 1940 ma rimane al largo, e durante la notte ritorna nei pressi del porto per mettere in mare un canotto, che porta la squadra di sabotatori fino all'imboccatura del porto. Da qui gli uomini rana raggiungono a nuoto la più vicina nave tedesca (internata in un porto neutrale amico) e le fissano allo scafo le mine a ventosa, poi tornano a bordo di LE RHIN che salpa. La nave presa a bersaglio, CORRIENTES della Hamburg-Suedamerikanische DSG, 4.498 grt/1921, viene danneggiata ma non affonda. Qualche anno dopo verrà venduta dai tedeschi agli spagnoli e riparata con il nome MONTE MONCAYO.

All'annunzio dell'armistizio francese, LE RHIN si trova in mare, cambia rotta e va a Gibilterra, dove arriva nella notte tra il 22 e il 23 giugno 1940: l'equipaggio decide di schierarsi con la Royal Navy(è il primo mercantile francese a schierarsi con la France Libre). Il 24 settembre la nave passa sotto bandiera inglese come HMS FIDELITY, e venne adattata a Cardiff per missioni speciali. Pronta il 10 aprile 1941 e va in Mediterraneo via Gibilterra, al largo della costa meridionale francese, dove naviga sotto diverse bandiere. La notte sbarca agenti sulla costa della Francia di Vichy e ne recupera altri, ad esempio a Collioure. Il comandante si fa arrestare dal guardacoste di Vichy CERBERES piuttosto che aprire il fuoco sui connazionali: sarà processato a Tolone nel settembre 1941, poi congedato. HMS FIDELITY riprende le sue missioni, ora al largo dell'Algeria. Nella seconda metà del 1942 rientra in UK e viene nuovamente convertita, ora imbarca un idrovolante e una vedetta veloce. Destinata in Estremo Oriente, ma nel corso del dicembre 1942 il convoglio ON 154 di cui fa parte, diretto a Halifax, viene attaccato da U-Boote. Il 28 dicembre accoglie 42 naufraghi del cargo EMPIRE SHACKLETON, ma il 30 dicembre è a sua volta silurata e affondata da U 435, con la perdita dell'intero equipaggio e dei naufraghi a bordo.

Messaggio modificato da de domenico il Giovedì, 03-Apr-2014, 17:32


--------------------
user posted image user posted image
PMEmail Poster
Top
de domenico
Inviato il: Mercoledì, 02-Apr-2014, 11:47
Quote Post





Gruppo: Special Guest
Messaggi: 3543
Utente Nr.: 7
Iscritto il: 25-Giu-2012



Da navsource


user posted image

USS Anacapa (AG-49) probably photographed during 1942 or 1943 while serving as a "Q-ship" (submarine decoy ship) in the Pacific.
US Navy photo from the collections of the US Navy Memorial.

user posted image

USS Anacapa (AG-49) enters Floating Drydock ARD-13, 10 February 1945, at Ulithi to receive repairs to her rudder and stern tube, in what appears to be rather battered camouflage. Note the hinged flaps just aft the anchor--a reminder of her previous career as a "Q"-ship.
US National Archives photo # 80-G-355446, a US Navy photo now in the collections of the US National Archives.

Messaggio modificato da de domenico il Mercoledì, 02-Apr-2014, 11:52


--------------------
user posted image user posted image
PMEmail Poster
Top
de domenico
Inviato il: Mercoledì, 02-Apr-2014, 12:13
Quote Post





Gruppo: Special Guest
Messaggi: 3543
Utente Nr.: 7
Iscritto il: 25-Giu-2012



user posted image

USS Asterion (AK-63) underway while operating as the "Q ship" Evelyn, 10 May 1942. Asterion was employed by Navy as a "Q ship" without success. She was later turned over to Coast Guard, commissioned USCGC Asterion (WAK-123) and assigned to CINCLANT from January to July 1944. She was homeported at Boston, MA., and served on weather patrol.
US Navy photo from "U.S. Coast Guard Cutters and Craft of World War II" by Robert L Scheina.

user posted image

USS Asterion (AK-63) photographed by a Coast Guard aircraft at 1100 hours, 10 May 1942, 16 miles east of West Palm Beach, Florida, (26-48N, 79-45W) while operating as a "Q-ship" on an anti-submarine decoy mission. She was masquerading under her former identity as S.S. Evelyn in hopes of bringing a submarine within range of her concealed gun battery. She was using the call sign WKCE.
US Coast Guard Historian's Office, Photo # None (negative)


--------------------
user posted image user posted image
PMEmail Poster
Top
Nelson
Inviato il: Mercoledì, 02-Apr-2014, 21:45
Quote Post





Gruppo: Members
Messaggi: 964
Utente Nr.: 5
Iscritto il: 24-Giu-2012



ricerca molto interessante su un argomento solitamente trascurato o comunque poco trattato nelle pubblicazioni di settore.


--------------------
user posted image user posted image
PMEmail Poster
Top
de domenico
Inviato il: Giovedì, 03-Apr-2014, 11:48
Quote Post





Gruppo: Special Guest
Messaggi: 3543
Utente Nr.: 7
Iscritto il: 25-Giu-2012



Visto che interessa, aggiungo la scheda DANFS (Dictionary of American Naval Fighting Ships) di ATIK/CAROLYN, che ricostruisce un po' la storia, e la foto da navsource.

DEPARTMENT OF THE NAVY -- NAVAL HISTORICAL CENTER
805 KIDDER BREESE SE -- WASHINGTON NAVY YARD
WASHINGTON DC 20374-5060

Atik
A double star in the constellation Perseus; the name itself is a shortened version of the Arabic al-Atik.

(AK-101: dp. 6,610; 1. 382'2"; b. 46'1"; dr. 21'6"; s. 9 k.; cpl. 141; a. 4 4", 4 .50-cal. mg., 4 .30-cal. Lewis mg., 6 dcp.)

Carolyn—a steel-hulled, single-screw steamer—was laid down on 15 March 1912 at Newport News, Va., by the Newport News Shipbuilding and Dry Dock Co., for the A. H. Bull Steamship Lines; launched on 3 July 1912; sponsored by Miss Carolyn Bull (for whom the ship was probably named), a granddaughter of the shipping line's owner, Archibald Hilton Bull (1847-1920); and delivered on 20 July 1912.

For the next 30 years, Carolyn carried freight and passengers between the West Indies and ports on the eastern seaboard of the United States. During World War I, she received a main battery of a 3-inch and a 5-inch gun, and a Navy armed guard detachment served in the ship from 28 June 1917 to 11 November 1918. During that time, too, the Navy gave her the identification number (Id. No.) 1608, but did not take her over for naval service.

Carolyn pursued her prosaic calling under the house flag of the Bull Line through the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor. However, soon after that tragic action, events transpired which had a fateful effect upon the ship.

By 12 January 1942, the British Admiralty's intelligence community had noted a "heavy concentration" of U-boats off the ". . . North American seaboard from New York to Cape Race" and passed along this fact to the American Navy. That day, U-123 under Kapitanleutnant Reinhard Hardegen, torpedoed and sank the British steamship Cyclops, inaugurating Operation "Paukenschlag," (literally, "roll on the kettledrums") and commencing a vertiable "blitz against coastal shipping between New York Harbor and the Outer Banks. U-boat commanders found peacetime conditions prevailing along the coast: towns and cities were not blacked-out and navigational buoys remained lighted; shipping followed normal routines and "carried the normal lights." "Paukenschlag" had caught the United States unawares.

Committed to fighting the rampaging Japanese in the Pacific and to assuring the safe arrival of vital convoys to Great Britain in the Atlantic, the American Navy could spare few ships to deal with this new threat close to our shores. As a result of the crisis, it launched a new, imaginative, and daring program. Because of the secret nature of the project, its inception is shrouded in mystery. It appears that President Franklin Roosevelt, well-known for his affinity for things novel and naval, desired that the Navy establish a "Q-ship" program similar to that which had been used by the British with some success in the first World War.

Acquired by the Navy from the Maritime Commission, Carolyn steamed to Portsmouth, N.H., where she was turned over to the Navy under a bareboat charter at 1530 on 12 February 1942. This followed within two weeks of a dispatch from the Chief of Naval Operations dated 31 January 1942 which had stated his desire that Evelyn, and Carolyn "be given a preliminary conversion to AK in the shortest possible time." A letter from the Chief of the Bureau of Ships elaborated on the "shortest possible time," when it stated on 12 February that the conversion and outfitting of the vessels was desired "by 1 March 1942."

As could be expected, the process of converting two venerable tramp steamers into men-of-war was by no means complete; but, over the next few weeks, the two erstwhile "tramps" were given their main and secondary batteries and sound gear. Nevertheless, they appeared to be mere cargo ships. Carolyn became Atik, and was given a cargo ship hull number, AK-101; Evelyn became Asterion (AK-100).

Atik (AK-101) was placed in commission at 1645 on 5 March 1942 at the Portsmouth (N.H.) Navy Yard, Lt. Comdr. Harry Lynnwood Hicks, USN, in command. Following fitting out and brief sea trials, she and Asterion got underway on 23 March 1942. Soon after leaving port, Atik and Asterion went their separate ways.

At the outset, all connected with the program apparently harbored the view that neither ship "was expected to last longer than a month after commencement of [her] assigned duty." Atik's holds were packed with pulpwood, a somewhat mercurial material. If dry, "an explosive condition might well develop" and, if wet, "rot, with resultant fire might well take place." Despite these disadvantages, pulpwood was selected as the best obtainable material to assure "floatability."

Atik's mission was to lure some unsuspecting U-boat into making a torpedo attack. According to the projected scenario, the submarine, having deemed the venerable tramp unworthy of the expenditure of more torpedoes, would surface to sink the crippled foe with gunfire.

The plan presupposed a "backup" which was to come to the rescue whenever a "Q-ship" ran into difficulties. In March, 1942, though, there was no such "safety net." "The commanding officers of the two ships (Atik and Asterion) were told [that] they could expect little help if they got into trouble as the situation was critical. Every available combatant ship and plane were [sic] being employed to the maximum for convoy and patrol duties."

In the gathering darkness, three days after Atik had sailed from Portsmouth, she attracted the attention of the German submarine, U-123, on her second war patrol off the eastern seaboard. The U-boat, on the surface, began stalking Atik at 2200, and at 0037 on 27 March fired one torpedo from 700 yards away which struck the ship on her port side, under the bridge. Fire broke out immediately, and the ship began to assume a slight list; an SOS went out from the crippled "freighter": "S.S. Carolyn, torpedo attack, burning forward, not bad." As U-123 proceeded around under her victim's stern, her captain, Kapitanleutnant Hardegen, duly noted one boat being lowered on the staroard side and men abandoning ship.

"Carolyn" was not dead—yet. After U-123 turned to starboard, Atik gathered steerage way, paralleling her course by turning to starboard as well, and dropped her concealment, commencing fire from her main and secondary batteries. The first shell dropped short of the U-boat, as she made off presenting a small target; the others were off in deflection. A veritable hail of .50-caliber machine gun fire, though, ricochetted around the U-boat's decks as she bent on speed to escape the trap into which Hardegen had fallen. One bullet mortally wounded a midshipman standing watch on U-123's bridge.

Gradually, the U-boat pulled out of range behind the cover of a smoke screen emitted by her straining diesels, and her captain assessed the damage. As he later recorded, "We had been incredibly lucky."

Not so, Atik. U-123 submerged and again approached her daring opponent. At 0229, the U-boat loosed a torpedo into Atik's machinery spaces. Satisfied that this blow would prove to be the coup de grace, U-123 stood off to await developments as Atik settled by the bow, her single screw now out of the water.

Once again, Atik's men could be seen embarking in her boats, as their ship clung stubbornly to life. U-123 surfaced at 0327, perhaps to finish off the feisty Q-ship once and for all. Suddenly, at 0350, a cataclysmic explosion blew Atik to atoms. Ten minutes later, U-123 buried her only casualty—the midshipman killed by Atik's machine gun fire. Atik's entire crew perished—either in the blast or during the severe gale that lashed the sea soon after the brave ship disintegrated.

The next morning, an Army bomber was dispatched to Atik's last reported position, but found nothing. The destroyer Noa (DD-343) and the tug Sagamore (AT-20) steamed toward the area as well. Heavy seas forced Sagamore to return to port, but Noa remained in the vicinity and ultimately sighted wreckage from Atik.

Asterion, too, had heard her sister ship's cry for help and plodded to the scene, Lt. Comdr. Legwen deeming his orders "sufficiently broad to proceed immediately to her assistance," but Asterion encountered casualties to her steering gear, andonly continued the search for 24 hours before being forced to put into Hampton Roads for repairs.

On 9 April, Radio Berlin reported that a U-boat had sunk an adversary after a "bitter battle," but gave no details. It was not until after the war that translated German records shed light on what had become of Atik


user posted image

SS Carolyn in merchant service displaying the funnel markings of her owner, the A. H. Bull Steamship Lines
Shipscribe.com photo


--------------------
user posted image user posted image
PMEmail Poster
Top
de domenico
Inviato il: Giovedì, 03-Apr-2014, 16:40
Quote Post





Gruppo: Special Guest
Messaggi: 3543
Utente Nr.: 7
Iscritto il: 25-Giu-2012



Come direbbe un giornalista, la storia c'è tutta, mi pare, no?


--------------------
user posted image user posted image
PMEmail Poster
Top
Utenti totali che stanno leggendo la discussione: 0 (0 Visitatori e 0 Utenti Anonimi)
Gli utenti registrati sono 0 :

Topic Options Pagine : (3) [1] 2 3  Reply to this topicStart new topicStart Poll

 



[ Script Execution time: 0.7156 ]   [ 20 queries used ]   [ GZIP Abilitato ]