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> Identificazione mercantile
Pinin
Inviato il: Domenica, 31-Ago-2014, 21:59
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Grazie. I have made this list of possibilities based on the filter but didn't went further: Date 1900-1930 and 2000 to 5000 tsl


Ulisse Italia Sbarchi Imbarchi carico 2200 10 1918 Luciano, Dan, Harriet, Cedar Spring
Pomona Italia Lauro carico 2200 9 1921 Edmondo, Primula
Nina Bianchi Italia F.lli Bianchi carico 2250 9 1919 Marcantonio Bragadin, Capo Noli, Franquette, Baffin, War Hydra
Motia Italia D'Alì carico 2500 9 1918 Sicania, War Dirk
Snia Amba Italia La Costiera carico 2500 9.5 1918 Santa Tecla
Etruria Italia Tripcovich carico 2600 10 1906 Este, Eger
Polcevera Italia Giusti carico 2600 9 1920 Santa Eulalia, Lake Finney
Almeria SITMAR carico 2600 9 1919 Almeria Lykes, Lake Slavi
Palma Italia Peninsulare carico 2700 9 1919 Dorsoduro, Lake Frecks
Salpi Italia Peninsulare carico 2700 10 1920 Escambia, Ariele, Vittoria
Ugo Bassi Italia Tirrenia carico 2900 10 1902 Duna
Foscolo Tirrenia carico 3100 9.5 1919 Maringa, Rogier, War Ripple
Apollo Italia Sbarchi Imbarchi carico 3200 9 1905 Farnham, Fulham, Dublin, Albistan, Cambyses
Vertunno Italia Sbarchi Imbarchi carico 3200 9 1905 Santarosa, Loughborough, Kyleakin
Florida II Italia Rosasco carico 3300 8 1905 Fortunato III, Nicolaos Pateras, Tideway, Typhoon, Onega, Twilight
Capo Faro Italia C.G.N.V. carico 3500 10 1905 Patani
Mira Italia Campanella carico 3600 9.5 1908 Gabon, Milanese, Merchant
Bosforo Italia Adriatica carico 3600 12 1929 Mayumbe
Spartivento Italia Querci carico 3700 8 1907 Aboukir, Saint Michael
Albisola Italia Corrado carico 4100 10 1927 Pentor
Silvano Italia Borriello carico 4200 10 1907 Nirvo, Irish Monarch
Mariarosa Galli carico 4200 8.5 1914 Triton, Queen Alexandra, Elfland
San Luigi Italia Gazzolo carico 4300 8 1905 Balcraig, Vancouver
Ettore Italia De Gregori carico 4300 9 1912 Collington, Fairwater, Penthaw, Flixton
Santa Paola Italia Ligure carico 4300 10 1913 Giovanni Galli, Nicolas Schiaffino, Speaker, Savan
Luigi Italia Scinicariello carico 4300 9 1920 Modemi, Modica
Hermada Italia Corrado carico 4400 9 1907 Carventum, Strathness
Valdirosa Italia I.N.S.A. carico 4400 8 1914 Eggesford, Recina
Sfinge Italia Lauro & Montella carico 4500 9 1911 Valgiuba, Ascensione, Mediterraneo
Valentino Coda Italia Corrado carico 4500 10 1924 Bellailsa
Enrichetta Italia Coop. Garibaldi carico 4600 9 1907 Presto, Alberto Fassini, Kossuth Ferencz
Maria Eugenia Italia S. E. Arm. carico 4700 9.5 1928 Maria D'Al, Amplegarth, Eastborough
Tina Primo Bozzo carico 4800 10 1911 Valsole, Argentina, Elias G. Culucundis, Tenterden, Artigas, Wiegand


To be more clear:
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Messaggio modificato da Pinin il Domenica, 31-Ago-2014, 22:06
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Pinin
Inviato il: Domenica, 31-Ago-2014, 22:23
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A check on my photo files i can exclude Enrichetta, Bosforo and Snia Amba from the list.

Messaggio modificato da Pinin il Domenica, 31-Ago-2014, 22:24
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Pinin
Inviato il: Venerdì, 12-Set-2014, 16:16
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It might be Ginetto

It has one more derrick in the war photo.

http://uim.marine.free.fr/nav-comp/Armafran/tisserand.htm

If that so i was mistaken in tonnage.

Messaggio modificato da Pinin il Venerdì, 12-Set-2014, 16:16
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WinstonChurchill
Inviato il: Venerdì, 12-Set-2014, 17:50
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user posted image
Immagine tratta da: http://uim.marine.free.fr/nav-comp/Armafran/tisserand.htm


Yes Pinin she might be that ship, lengthened after works, but I am not sure. I have found an interesting image on the IWM's site. We can see a ship under attack at Preveza that might be the Ginetto, that was bombed and sunk in that place on 22.08.1943: the position of the derricks seems different.


user posted image
Immagine tratta da: http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205023231

user posted image


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Pinin
Inviato il: Venerdì, 12-Set-2014, 21:04
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The hull and stern looks like it, but the derricks are once again different, in attack photo it is taller and apparently misses the middle derrick.
I don't get any Bacchus in Mediterranean, wonder where the IWM got their name.
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WinstonChurchill
Inviato il: Sabato, 13-Set-2014, 09:32
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Well if we compare the image of Tamazer I with that of the ship under attack at Preveza I think we can say they are the same ship. It is true that the stern of the ship pictured in Patrasso looks the same but the hull seems longer (it could be my fault due to the perspective) and the derricks seem taller than those of Ginetto. We can not exclude any possibility, even a camouflage, but I don't know how to explain the apparent difference in the length.


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Pinin
Inviato il: Sabato, 13-Set-2014, 13:27
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I was comparing the two wartime picture. There are 2 derricks in Patrasso picture and a mast(not sure if it is a derrick) nearer bow.
In the picture under air attack i don't see the second derrick. Also the derrick in this picture seems almost at funnel height, but it is possible that it has an extension that is folded in Patrasso photo.

I have found this forum with more photos on it but i am not a member, and i am having difficulties registering. I'll keep trying.

http://www.nautilia.gr/forum/showthread.ph...-(1944)-Ginetto


I also agree that it seems longer. Maybe Lloyd's Register or RINA have something about a lengthened ship.
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de domenico
Inviato il: Lunedì, 15-Set-2014, 09:25
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QUOTE (Pinin @ Venerdì, 12-Set-2014, 20:04)
The hull and stern looks like it, but the derricks are once again different, in attack photo it is taller and apparently misses the middle derrick.
I don't get any Bacchus in Mediterranean, wonder where the IWM got their name.



BACCHUS was a Dutch-built tanker used as a wine tanker by the S.té d'Armement Fluviale et Maritime (Soflumar), Rouen, ex TRENT, 1,810 grt/1922, given by Vichy France to Germany at Marseilles on 25.12.1942 under the Kaufmann-Laval agreement, from June 1943 used as a Kriegsmarine station tanker in the Aegean, Aug. 1943 may have been renamed BRUNHILD for transfer to the Black Sea (?), in Jan. 1944 still under the name BACCHUS, 7 Jan. 1944 under unsuccessful attack by the Polish sub DZIK ,15 Feb. 1944 renamed BERTA. Again under unsuccessful attack by HMS UNRULY 16-17.4.1944 in the Aegean when returning from the Black Sea (sighted in the Dardanelles), sunk off Cape Sepia near Kassandra, Gulf of Thessaloniki, by HMS UNSWERVING 3.10.1944 (the last Allied sub sinking in the Mediterranean) when sailing in a convoy under escort by TA 18, two UJ and two smaller patrol vessels.

Messaggio modificato da de domenico il Lunedì, 15-Set-2014, 09:43


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Pinin
Inviato il: Lunedì, 15-Set-2014, 12:33
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Thanks i didn't had her in my list. I made a web search and also found a claim that was sunk by France Libre submarine Curie ex.HMS Vox.

I have a Bertha ex Brunhilde ex Bacchus but was said to be 5600grt which seems to be a mistake.

Messaggio modificato da Pinin il Lunedì, 15-Set-2014, 12:36
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Pinin
Inviato il: Lunedì, 15-Set-2014, 13:04
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I think i have found a better hypothesis for the mercantile in Patrasso - the hint was given to me by Ellinis in Nautilia.gr forum.

Cerere another "Gharb" type ship , ex Cambridge, Elbeuf, Debardeur , Sbarchi Imbarchi, 9 nodi 1920.

With 2 derricks here:

http://uim.marine.free.fr/nav-comp/Armafran/debardeur.htm

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Cerere was requested by Regia Marina as F135 , i don't know for what propose.



So the ship in air attack should be Ginetto while the one in Patrasso should be Cerere.

Here is another of what should be Ginetto after being hit. Photo from Nautilia forum.
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Messaggio modificato da Pinin il Lunedì, 15-Set-2014, 13:04
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WinstonChurchill
Inviato il: Lunedì, 15-Set-2014, 16:17
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Great job Pinin. I would like to thank you also the greek friends of Nautilia's forum ( http://www.nautilia.gr/new/site/ ) that have help us in this research. Cerere was requisitioned from the Regia Marina at Manfredonia on 9.01.1941 and in the same date she was registered, like F135, in the rolls of the auxiliary ships to be used as Pilot Boat. She was bombed in Biserta on 3.12.1942, hit and near to sink, she was brought to run aground. She was damaged from the Italians before leaving the Tunisia on 9.05.1943 and in the same date dismissed from the rolls (source "Repertorio AIDMEN").


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de domenico
Inviato il: Lunedì, 15-Set-2014, 18:02
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QUOTE (WinstonChurchill @ Lunedì, 15-Set-2014, 15:17)
Great job Pinin. I would like to thank you also the greek friends of Nautilia's forum ( http://www.nautilia.gr/new/site/ ) that have help us in this research. Cerere was requisitioned from the Regia Marina at Manfredonia on 9.01.1941 and in the same date she was registered, like F135, in the rolls of the auxiliary ships to be used as Pilot Boat. She was bombed in Biserta on 3.12.1942, hit and near to sink, she was brought to run aground. She was damaged from the Italians before leaving the Tunisia on 9.05.1943 and in the same date dismissed from the rolls (source "Repertorio AIDMEN").

F 135 stands for pilotaggio Foraneo or offshore pilot vessel, an euphemism for an escort vessel (the term escort probably seemed too defensive for our valiant warriors). CERERE, 1,198 grt/1920, SA Sbarchi, Imbarchi e Trasporti, Rome (since 1925), ex CAMBRIDGE (Cie Lorraine des Combustibles, Bordeaux 1924) ex ELBEUF (SAN Les Armateurs Français, Bordeaux, 1920) ex DEBARDEUR (French Govt, compl. 12.1920 by Dyle & Bacalan at Bordeaux) was damaged in an air attack and beached at Biserta on 3.12.1942, then sabotaged and abandoned there at the end of the Tunisian campaign in May 1943. Salved by the French post-war, TEBOURBA for the S.té Navale Franco-Tunisienne from 1948, ANGKOR-THOM for Tan-Pa at Phnom Penh in 1955, broken up at Hong Kong 3rd quarter 1956.

Messaggio modificato da de domenico il Lunedì, 15-Set-2014, 18:10


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Pinin
Inviato il: Lunedì, 15-Set-2014, 18:39
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Thanks.
Strange that such a cargo ship was employed for escort. Probably it was more a multi mission vessel doing escort/transport.
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WinstonChurchill
Inviato il: Lunedì, 15-Set-2014, 18:50
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QUOTE (Pinin @ Lunedì, 15-Set-2014, 18:39)
Strange that such a cargo ship was employed for escort.

I agree also because the speed of 9 Knots seems too low for an escort vessel.


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de domenico
Inviato il: Lunedì, 15-Set-2014, 20:41
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QUOTE (Pinin @ Lunedì, 15-Set-2014, 17:39)
Thanks.
Strange that such a cargo ship was employed for escort. Probably it was more a multi mission vessel doing escort/transport.

Well, Pinin, if you look at the list of 153 ships requisitioned by the Regia Marina as Fs you will find an awful lot of small, ancient cargo ships, tugs, small passenger vessels, trawlers...a little bit of everything. They had to make do with the meager offerings that was all the abbey had available ("è quello che passava il convento"). If you consider the bric-à-brac which was taken up as AS (fancily called "cacciasommergibili"), you cannot show surprise here...

Messaggio modificato da de domenico il Lunedì, 15-Set-2014, 20:42


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